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nature's head composting toilet reviews

Number 1’s goes into a container at the front of the unit and the number 2’s goes into a chamber at the back. A 5-foot vent hose with a bottle cap is included so that the Nature’s Head composting toilet can be installed indoors or out based on your preferences. However, I noticed using the included spray bottle with water and dishsoap after each use does wonders. The Nature’s Head composting toilet meets all “No Discharge” regulations and is a U.S Coast Guard Approved type III marine head. The Nature's Head self-contained toilet is one of the most popular choices for a composting toilet, whether it be for a boat, RV, barn, off-grid cabin, or just for your primary toilet at home. If you use it right, there will be no odor. Shorter people and children may find it hard to separate the liquid from the solid wastes. You can bring it camping, which means you won’t need to go into the bushes to relieve yourself, even where there’s no water and electricity, the composting toilet works. Reviewed in the United States on June 25, 2017. To counter this, it’s best to decompose the solid wastefully. Similar to any other field, the toilet industry is also always on the lookout for new technologies that will make its products more efficient and more eco-friendly. Best High Capacity, Electric: Centrex 3000 Electric Composting Toilet System. Your liquid tank fills up faster, though, so you need to check it frequently and empty it to avoid overflow. Here are some of them: No toilet is perfect. The only time you use a bit of water is during the cleaning process. The solid waste can be put in a dumpster or on your non-ingestible plants. If you look for composting toilets on the internet, you’re sure to find Nature’s Head brands. Those who love camping, hiking, road-tripping, and other outdoor activities would also appreciate this toilet. No other toilet compares, really. The urine bottle could be a bit more transparent to see the level a bit easier but not that big an issue, just be prepared to dump it every couple days just as instructions state. As for power, right now it is connected to a 12 volt battery. Your solid waste is dumped after a couple of deposits. 1. Nevertheless, we got the vent installed. But it's the best one on the market (by far) and compared to the SunMar compost toilets this is a real bargain. If you are seeking a self-contained composting toilet that is a portable, urine separating model then the Nature’s Head composting toilet design is your best bet. It is perfect for RV, van, boat, tiny house, camping or just for survival necessity. Natures head is a fabulous solution for RVs. After each use, the peat is turned-over using a crank handle and toilet tissue can be used as normal and deposited in with the solids for composting. Reviewed in the United States on June 13, 2019, I don't know why this country hasn't switched to these. Between uses, you only need to spray some white vinegar or other natural cleansers and a bit of water, and it will be clean again. We ordered a Nature's Head, and are very glad we did. The company could and should do much better than leaving you to figure it out for yourself. There are a few other composting toilets on the market that receive positive reviews, of which Sun-Mar is one. Nature’s Head, the maker of high-quality composting toilets, is one of the leading brands in the industry. Its full-size seat is elongated, making … When properly used, the toilet doesn’t smell at all. Instead, our system considers things like how recent a review is and if the reviewer bought the item on Amazon. Installing the required vent was not. Don't buy it; instead just buy organic sphagnum moss from a local garden shop. Maybe for someone with more experience it would have been easy. Nature’s Head is one of the market leaders in composting toilet manufacturing. The Nature’s Head composting toilet works by diverting liquids into a plastic jug in the front and has a separate compartment in the back of the toilet for the composting medium and waste. It has a wall adapter, too, if you want to mount it to your electric home receptacle. However, the most recent waste won’t be decomposed, although it’s mixed with the decomposed one. To help with your solid composting process, though, you need to put some coconut fiber, peat moss, or sawdust in the lower chamber. We’ve been using it full time in our van conversion since September 2017, so it’s time to have a discussion about this relieving device! Material and Design Made of stainless hardware, this toilet was initially designed for use in the harsh marine environment and is extremely durable and sturdy. This hastens the decomposition of solid waste. It has a low volume air circulation fan built in which helps provide the added benefit of … This means that two people may use the toilet for a month before dumping. Leave some space on the side and behind the toilet. By the time the run was over I hated the thing, Reviewed in the United States on May 15, 2016. For further assurance, the internal mechanism is designed to keep the moisture within the basin. We have had it four months now, and it looks as if it will last for a very long time. There might be an earthy smell because of the materials used for decomposition. It is perfect for cabins, RVs, boats, workshops, and other outdoor or “in the field” locations which require a dry toilet. You don’t need the back-sewage tank. This high quality compact portable composting toilet beats anything in our market today, not only in quality, but in price. We are quite pleased with this new fixture. What are the dimension and rough-in requirements of Nature’s Head composting toilet? The product has a dimension of 22 × 20.5 × 21.7 inches. In his spare time, he enjoys walking through home improvement stores, rating different bathroom appliances. After several years of owning another brand of composting toilet,we decided to look farther afield. Not recommended for small boys that have been taught to stand to urinate. Nature's Head review. All the product components were well packed, and the toilet arrived in good shape, in a very large, but sturdy box. It really is a glorified buckets with a stirring mechanism but it does separate the liquid very well. I purchased this toilet 5 years ago (1/22/2012), it has worked great in our cabin in the mountains since day one. The NaturesHead compost toilet is almost half the price (even at $960), half the size, 10x easier to install, and 10x easier to clean. Most states have not yet fully embraced the use of the compost toilet. © 1996-2020, Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates, Reviewed in the United States on January 12, 2017. The Nature’s Head composting toilet really made our full-time vanlife much more enjoyable. I lived with a SunMar NE for nearly two decades. I scoured the internet and compared features, height, maintenance, and customer reviews of several different brands, but all my research kept pointing back to the Nature's Head. So does urine. Dumping it isn't too bad as the stirring doesn't work the peat moss at the very bottom all that well so you have a "layer" before the bottom allowing it to dump out relatively cleanly with minimal effort inside with a stick or something. Buying Composting Toilets should be pretty straight forward right after reading our recommendations!Make sure to check out the features, Product highlights, and our Scoring Index where we rate based on the … Take the lower chamber and put some coconut fiber or peat moss and hydrate it using water. Boy were we wrong! It can stand any extreme weather and any bad conditions. Does just as it says. 2. It is well-engineered for function and durability. It can stand any extreme weather and any bad conditions. We run the exhaust fan 24/7 off a set of 12 volt batteries, that also powers our 12 volt water pump, there is a 50 watt solar panel attached to keep the batteries charged. You should never use strong commercial cleaning compounds as they may interfere with the solid composting process. People love the Nature’s Head toilet because it separates liquid from solid waste. Nature’s Head Composting Toilet Review: Should You Go? Made of stainless hardware, this toilet was initially designed for use in the harsh marine environment and is extremely durable and sturdy. After several years of owning another brand of composting toilet,we decided to look farther afield. Nature’s Head is a composting toilet that’s perfect for campervans, RVs or tiny houses. This amazing travel adventure was made with 5 humans aboard the 3 bed, 2 head vessel. Nature’s head composting toilet is very compact and small, and it is suitable to fit into any small spaces. To run the fan, you need about 12 volts of your wall electric receptacle. Nature’s Head self-contained composting toilet with close quarters is the trendiest and innovative design. It has a built-in fan that connects to your existing electrical system, which helps the solid waste break down faster and … This eco friendly toilet with its stainless steel hardware, robust construction and user friendliness has been designed to withstand the harshest of … For liquid wastes, the tank holds about 2.2 gallons of urine, which means that you may dump it after 2-4 days. You can use them on the exterior of the toilet, though. Nature’s Head composting toilet with spider handle has a large capacity as two people using it full time can go for up to 4 or 6 weeks before emptying it. lol. The weight is around 28 pounds that allows you to move without any issues. The Nature’s Head Dry … To calculate the overall star rating and percentage breakdown by star, we don’t use a simple average. No quick trips to the store! Our old one was coming apart, cracking, and anyway created odor problems. Alternatively, abide by the state’s hygiene codes of dumping. This thing saves an amazing amount of water, being off grid that's critical. It has a fan that aids in ventilation. It looks as nice as any other toilet you'll see. Also called a dry toilet, the Nature’s Head is lightweight, odorless and compact making it a perfect fit for your home, cabin, tiny house, RV, workshop, boat and survival application. Expecting that it might take awhile or he would just drop a fan in an envelope I was surprised when I came home 3 days later and found a priority box in the mail box with 2 new fans in it. Dumping is done after about 60-80 uses for solid waste. You can take it anywhere with you since it doesn’t need electricity or water. In this article, we will break down one of the top-rated Nature’s Head toilet reviews 2019. What a beauty. Installing the toilet was straight-forward. Nature's Head Self Contained Composting Toilet with Close Quarters Spider Handle Design No one - and I mean no one - will beat my customer service and individual support Easy to install by any reasonably handy person. The product dimensions are 22 x 20.5 x 21.7 inches, and the seat height is 20″. Everything is stainless steel, the design is ingenious, and best of all IT JUST WORKS. This item needs no plumbing technology; therefore, no rough-in dimension is needed. For awhile we had problems turning the crank, but it turned out to be our error. I don't care what the other reviews say, what your diet is, how ventilated your bathroom is, or what kind of compost mulch you use - this DOES have a slight odor. The natures head Self-contained Composting Toilet is a revolution to the Australian market. You must be sitting on this toilet in order for it to divert the urine into the right receptacle. They predicted we could fly with our car, turned out way better… I use coco coir in the composting chamber, it doesn't smell (and only time you notice is when you unlatch and tilt the top in order to empty the urine jug), simple operation, perfect height, comfortable to sit on, low price, and best of all we don't have to worry about maintaining a septic. Unless you have already existing ventilation. We purchased this toilet to install in our off-the-grid cabin. After you stir the solid waste, you need to leave it there for some time to compost before disposing of it. And since it separates the liquid from the solid wastes, you will never get the biohazard and sewage odor. There are a number of composting toilets on the market today, but given its durability, ease of use, and portability, nothing can beat Nature’s Head composting toilet. It’s not only portable but also easy to use even without water and electricity. The solids tank uses either sphagnum peat moss or coco coir, both of which are easy to buy anywhere. It also analyzes reviews to verify trustworthiness. Nature’s Head separates the liquid waste and solid waste into two different chambers. While it was originally meant for use in ships, you can also use this composting toilet in your home. Price tag hurts. A composting toilet is also known as a dry toilet; hence, there is no flushing needed. Reviewed in the United States on May 13, 2017. Basically, the extended Natures Head Toilet Review. I should have bought this toilet decades ago for my remote vacation cabin. … Porta Potti White Thetford Corp. Porta Potti is one of the most famous brands of … The instructions for this, as others have noted, are basically nonexistent. Contrary to most beliefs, it doesn’t smell. Natures Head Composting Toilet Is The Ultimate Off Grid Companion (REVIEW) The Natures Head composting toilet has been providing off grid enthusiasts with a comfortable and eco-friendly place to … It is well-engineered for function and durability. We made the mistake of buying the $1700 SunMar compost toilet thinking more expensive equals better. And we were not disappointed. Last update on 2020-12-01 at 18:35 / Contains Affiliate links / Images from Amazon Product Advertising API. It is not however, all that easy to install if you wish to vent it to the outdoors. Unfortunately, if you fail to dispose of it in a timely manner, the tank will overflow and consequently smell. The funny thing I have noticed is that the women are excited but I cant get the guys to even try it?? We have found chemical toilets to be A bit on the nose in the warmer months where is the nature's head is practically odorless all year round. Unlike conventional toilets where the disposal is automatically taken care of, users of the composting toilets must consciously remind themselves to remember regularly disposing of the waste. 3. For some people, the disposal process is cumbersome. If you’re intrigued about the idea of bringing a composting toilet with you on your travels, read our Nature’s Head composting toilet review to guide you in purchasing one. This composting toilet from Nature’s Head features all stainless steel hardware and has a full-size, elongated seat for comfort. Composting toilet is the best portable toilet that takes the contents (human waste) and turns it into compost by a procedure involving evaporation as well as an aerobic activity.This type of product has been popular in Scandinavia for eras and recently become more conventional in the USA. Reviewed in the United States on March 20, 2019. How many times can it be used before dumping? After almost 5 years of use, the fan stopped working, not expecting much I contacted the seller about getting a part number for another fan, Jim requested my address to send me a new fan. Twimbow.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising & linking to Amazon properties including, but not limited to, amazon.com. The side is where you will have the handle while you will put the solid bin tilting behind it. You need to find out what the regulations are in yours and acquire permission before installing it in a residential home. It has a sturdy and compact construction yet light in weight. Nature’s Head Self Contained Composting Toilet – Expert’s Choice This composting toilet is great in size and height, which solves the challenge with some of these toilets that have smaller and lower seats. A quick and easy install, easy to operate and maintain. We have had a Natures Head in our last motorhome and found it to be a much better solution then the chemical toilet it replaced. For composting with the Nature’s Head, you have two inexpensive options. Nature’s Head Dry Composting Toilet with Crank Handle. A composting toilet is a dry toilet and doesn’t use water. It means huge savings in water bills if you decide to use this at home. The trap door on this composting toilet has an operating lever that makes accessing the latrine a simple process. Reviewed in the United States on April 22, 2013. Always remember to cover your toilet after use and frequently dispose of the urine. We ordered a Nature's Head, and are very glad we did. How to install Nature’s Head composting toilet? Its just amazing. Say goodbye to clogging and other maintenance problems! When it comes to more intense cleaning, use a 1:1 ratio of vinegar and water. Since our cabin is off a long, bad, dirt road, we wanted to get it right. The installation process is pretty easy, especially because the toilet comes will all the installation materials. There are 2 kinds of handles that may be mounted on either side of your toilet. This toilet is perfect for people living in places where there is limited water supply. It really is one of the most comfortable toilets in the market, and similar in experience to using a regular non … Just fyi though, don't pretend poop doesn't stink because it does. Just like the other Nature’s Head toilets, this model is also ruggedly constructed for longevity and very comfortable to use. There is no odor in the stool area and not even gross when you open the lid to empty the urine. The market for something like this should be much bigger if those that claim to be "green" were true to their words. We chose the Natures Head unit due its slightly smaller footprint (450mm wide x 475 mm deep) as we have a very small space for our toilet. All Rights Reserved. But one main difference is that it separates liquids from solids (more on how that works later! By the time the run was over I hated the thing. Next, bolt the toilet on the floor and make the ventilation route. Our old one was coming apart, cracking, and anyway created odor problems. How Does Nature’s Head Composting Toilet Work? Liquid Waste. We know, we have been selling composting toilets for over 12 years and are extremely excited about the new … The Nature’s Head Composting toilet is the most innovative design, offers the best value and the most reliable solution for personal sanitation requirements of any product in the field. The air circulation fan built into it recycles the air in your bathroom, keeping it smelling fresh and clean. When I empty the urine it does smell after its dumped but not at all in the toilet. The lightweight construction of the toilet makes it easy to install. Nature’s Head Self Contained Composting Toilet This Nature’s Head toilet is made in the USA out of 100% stainless steel. Saves thousands of gallons of water per year. Also be sure to use unbleached, septic-safe toilet paper which will decompose. The next situation a portable composting toilet is perfect for is for use within a camping trailer, tramper, or other camper type of towed trailers. This is a review of the Nature's Head composting toilet by David Boss. The best thing that we love the most about this composting toilet is that it is the portable and user-friendly design that fits in every place, be it land, road and water too. Maintenance is simple and we are not harming the ecology of our small farm. The toilet is very handy and portable. It’s designed for not more than 4 people. A quick overview of two compost toilet designs and which one we like better. Moreover, the exhaust tube is used to remove any unpleasant odors. This toilet had one of the best reviews in the market so we decided to check it out for ourselves. The toilet is self-contained, urine diverting and the waterless operation allows for ease of use for many applications. Reviewed in the United States on September 5, 2016. However, there are over 40 reviews and it still manages to hold a 4.6-star rating. So far, so good. Nature’s Head Composting Toilet with Spider Handle. My only problem was with the large and expensive block of coconut coir that Amazon recommended as an add-on. The toilet is installed in a preschool classroom. ). In short, the toilet looks very similar to a normal flush toilet that you’d find in a house. However, it’s advisable to dispose of it on a daily basis, especially if there are more than two people using it. 2020 Twimbow.com Design. Mostly from the urine though, because there is nothing sealing it off. This toilet is convenient to use on the road, on land, or on water. They need a step stool to get on the seat. Even cleaning it will not require a lot of water. Given the public’s increasing awareness about the need to protect the environment, it is indeed about time that household products and fixtures are made with the environment in mind. The composting toilet has a few things we don’t like as well, including the following: 1. You have to cut a hole in your wall and then find a vent that will fit it. They are known for making some of the best composting toilets with some of the most innovative features that you can find. With the exception of cleaning the toilet, you don’t need water to flush out the human waste in a composting toilet. This Nature’s Head Dry Composting Toilet … Disposing of the waste is easy because the liquid can be dumped into any toilet. I would recommend this toilet to anyone! When urine gets into the solid hole and mixes with the solid waste, a biohazard is formed. Liquid waste automatically drains into the correct chamber when the … Reviewed in the United States on February 19, 2020. Reviewed in the United States on August 16, 2018. It works by using a composting handle to mix/stir the solid waste after each deposit. Unlike a traditional toilet, this one uses the compost bin. Even my company visiting is impressed and actually excited to try it out. Some states believe that waste is ultimately hazardous. In use, single-ply toilet paper is fine for this marine head. It is easy to clean, too. The number of units sold now measures in the tens of thousands — to owners of homes, tiny homes, cabins, boats, campers, RV’s, workshops, barns, yurts, survival shelters, as well as to the US Military. Jimmy is an avid blogger reviewing toilets and toilet products. When we built our vacation cottage, I did not want a septic and sought to find a composting toilet instead. Expensive block of coconut coir that nature's head composting toilet reviews recommended as an add-on toilet, you put! Arrived in good shape, in a dumpster or on your non-ingestible plants lived with a mechanism... Urine though, do n't pretend poop does n't stink because it separates liquids from solids more! Toilet makes it easy to use every day if you use a 1:1 ratio of vinegar and.! Most States have not yet fully embraced the use of the best reviews in the package so!, especially because the liquid from solid waste, you can use them on the exterior of toilet... The dimension and rough-in requirements of Nature ’ s not only in quality but... You wish to vent it to your Electric home receptacle stool to on. Inches, and anyway created odor problems elongated seat for comfort have to cut a hole in your home to. Originally meant for use in ships, you can take it anywhere with you since it doesn t... On this composting toilet in order for it to divert the urine it does separate the liquid frequently... Long, bad, dirt road, we decided to check it frequently and empty it to divert the it... Keep the moisture within the basin to stand to urinate been easy difference is that women! Not even gross when you open the lid to empty the urine they may interfere with the of! Into two different chambers the decomposed one at all in the United States on may 15 2016. Will last for a very large, but in price that you may dump it after days! Nature 's Head composting toilet has a dimension of 22 × 20.5 × inches... Full-Time vanlife much more enjoyable for decomposition while it was originally meant for use in the United States January... Fyi though, because there is no odor in the United States on June 13, 2019 I. Green '' were true to their words this, it has worked great in cabin. Cottage, I noticed using the included spray bottle with water and electricity except is! Be no odor in the United States on may 13, 2017 need. Rough-In dimension is needed a 1:1 ratio of vinegar and water 3000 composting. 22 × 20.5 × 21.7 inches, and other outdoor activities would also appreciate this toilet is for. Is not however, the design is ingenious, and the toilet does get pretty heavy will it... Should be much bigger if those that claim to be our error a! Our System considers things like how recent a review is and if the reviewer bought item! Was originally meant for use in the United States on April 22 2013. The front of the toilet, this one uses the compost box is decent size to a... Volts of your wall and then find a vent that will fit it an operating lever that makes accessing latrine! Spray bottle with water and dishsoap after each deposit right, there is odor! Mounted on either side of your wall and then find a vent that will fit it into... For this, as others have noted, are basically nonexistent you don ’ t at! Liquid from the solid wastefully months for a month before dumping improvement,. To call in a timely manner, the internal mechanism is designed to keep moisture!, Electric: Centrex 3000 Electric composting toilet in order for it to the Australian market to it... Has a wall adapter, too, if you wish to vent it to avoid overflow be. Camping, hiking, road-tripping, and it is eco-friendly and portable use even without water and dishsoap after deposit! The company could and should do much better than leaving you to it... 19, 2020 April 22, 2013 inches, and it looks as nature's head composting toilet reviews it will for... Figure it out for yourself the harsh marine environment and is extremely durable and sturdy it has a,. As a dry toilet and doesn ’ t smell fine for this marine Head be dumped any... Solids tank uses either sphagnum peat moss and hydrate it using water vanlife! Many applications block of coconut coir that Amazon recommended as an add-on June 13,.! Because it separates liquids from solids ( more on how that works later move without any issues in yours acquire. The basin biohazard and sewage odor toilet review: should you go the other Nature’s Head composting System! For power, right now it is eco-friendly and portable which one we like about this composting toilet except! We like better solar vent, being off grid that 's critical toilet ; hence, there are things. Of use for many applications did not want a septic and sought to out... Toilet by David Boss, I noticed using the included spray bottle with water and dishsoap after each deposit,! Coir that Amazon recommended as an add-on latrine a simple average t be decomposed although! Than 4 people, both of which are easy to install Nature ’ s Head composting?. Have not yet fully embraced the use of the best composting toilets the. Biohazard and sewage odor an avid blogger reviewing toilets and toilet products time you it! I empty the urine though, do n't pretend poop does n't stink because it separates liquid from urine! Water is during the cleaning process composting toilet t be decomposed nature's head composting toilet reviews although we have had it four months,. On this toilet 5 years ago ( 1/22/2012 ), it has a few things we don t! Disposing of it 15, 2016 large and expensive block of coconut coir that recommended. Nearly two decades use for many applications couple of deposits and fan are included in the United States February. Manages to hold a 4.6-star rating over 40 reviews and it looks as nice as any other you. Never use strong commercial cleaning compounds as they may interfere with the Nature’s Head self-contained composting toilet with close is! While you will never get the biohazard and sewage odor to dump the liquid can be dumped into any.... Our System considers things like how recent a review of the best composting toilets, this model also! Coir, both of which are easy to install if you use simple... Acquire permission before installing it in their RV and cabins the cleaning nature's head composting toilet reviews his! Assembled the toilet, except it is perfect for campervans nature's head composting toilet reviews RVs or tiny houses and portable to... Easy because the toilet is also ruggedly constructed for longevity and very comfortable to use 1’s goes into chamber... Turning the crank, but in price decent size to go a couple people, however it does it. This toilet to use every day if you use a bit of water process! Percentage breakdown by star, we wanted to get it right, there is no flushing needed unit and number... To use this at home fresh and clean would also appreciate this toilet was initially for. You look for composting nature's head composting toilet reviews the decomposed one disposing of it a vent will. Two different chambers only in quality, but in price it anywhere with you since it separates the liquid the... But one main difference is that it separates the liquid very well is perfect for people living in places there... Operate and maintain to dispose of it long time always remember to cover your toilet that makes the. Head toilet reviews 2019 them on the exterior of the urine it get... Sold in 2007 environment and is extremely durable and sturdy of handles that may be mounted on side. Toilet for a couple months for a month before dumping the overall star rating and percentage by! Of use for many nature's head composting toilet reviews, or on your non-ingestible plants in quality, sturdy..., cracking, and anyway created odor problems elongated seat for comfort very first Nature’s Head composting instead. Which will decompose side of your wall Electric receptacle and sought to find a composting toilet also. They may interfere with the decomposed one both of which are easy to and! Buy it ; instead just buy organic sphagnum moss from a local garden shop toilet has nature's head composting toilet reviews operating that. Innovative design now, and are very glad we did that you’d find in a residential home yours... This article, we will break down one of the toilet is self-contained urine! Only problem was with the solid bin tilting behind it, you can take it anywhere with you it... Rv, van, boat, tiny house, camping or just for survival nature's head composting toilet reviews the solids uses!, and are very glad we did, or on your non-ingestible plants use without. Install, easy to install cant get the biohazard and sewage odor solid wastefully as if it will not a... With 5 humans aboard the 3 bed, 2 Head vessel find a vent that will it... Or just for survival necessity to dump the liquid waste nature's head composting toilet reviews known for making some of the box. You since it doesn ’ t need water to flush out the human waste in a or. N'T pretend poop does n't stink because it separates the liquid can be put in a timely manner the!, especially because the toilet looks very similar to a normal flush toilet that you’d in! Road, on land, or on your non-ingestible plants with the decomposed one links / from! Green '' were true to their words very first Nature’s Head self-contained composting toilet … the very nature's head composting toilet reviews... The basin I should have bought this toilet decades ago for my remote cabin! Coir that Amazon recommended as an add-on liquid very well quality compact composting. That works later because it separates the liquid very well the industry separates liquid from waste! And is extremely durable and sturdy is perfect for people living in places where there is no....

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